BISFF2025 | Correspondence 通信计划059：Just Drifting 漂流

BISFF Correspondence 通信计划

This program involves conducting brief email interviews with the directors of the international films featured in the festival, in lieu of the traditional Q&A session that follows the screenings. Through this program, we hope to provide a platform for filmmakers to discuss their work and share their insights with our audience in China.

为了跨越种种障碍，开辟更多交流空间，我们设置了“BISFF Correspondence 通信计划”，对部分国际单元的参展作者进行系列访谈，这些访谈将在作品放映后发布在联展各个媒体平台。

Just Drifting｜漂流

Olaa Zhyzhko 奥拉·日日科

2025｜0:30:00｜France｜Ukrainian, English, French｜World Premiere

Director: Olaa Zhyzhko

Interviewer & Translator: Zou Xiaofan

Coordinator & Editor: Suliko

导演：奥拉·日日科

采访、翻译：邹筱帆

统筹、编辑：苏丽珂

Q1: The film is set against the backdrop of war, yet its focus is on Lucia, showing her fear, desire, and hallucinations. In creating this work, were you more interested in exploring the emotional experience of an individual as a reflection of the brutality and absurdity of war? Do you see Lucia’s desire and despair as part of what war consumes?

A1: If there was no war, Lucia would die tragically in other circumstances. I think she was not predestined to die peacefully in her bed. But without war, she wouldn't have met Jesus. She wouldn’t have had this journey. She is the heart, eyes, body, skin of the film. But war is guiding her. War gives her a desire to fantasise and act stronger. Lucia's attitude is her clash against the war system. And even if she was brutally murdered, war did not consume her. Lucia was laughing in its face, resisted and didn’t break. Even in the water she continued gracefully drifting along. And yes, I think war places everything on more extreme levels and makes stakes higher.

When we discussed the film with Sashya Yatsuk, who performed Lucia (I want to mention that she has never ever played in a movie or theatre before), I told her that there is a particularity I have, and I shared this trait with Lucia. When I am scared — I am extremely excited, in every form, even sexually. It moves me forward. And this feeling of fear and fragility transforms into irrational daring. It is a kind of fragility which gives power. I think it is beautiful. I think it’s present in Just Drifting.

Just Drifting, Olaa Zhyzhko, 2025

Q2: The final sex scene takes place in an outdoor, open space, which feels like a bold choice. Were you aiming to use this sense of “publicness” to explore how female desire and the body are exposed or made vulnerable in the context of war, or perhaps to reclaim a sense of agency?

A2: I didn’t want to explore anything ‘female’. At least intentionally or consciously. I imagined the story of Lucia Kholodna, the world she lives in and her journey. She became alive in my head and I just followed her and made a film. But as I am not a stable person and ambivalent, I am sure that both answers can be truthful. Lucia took the lead in this scene over the figure of Jesus, man, soldier, creator and destroyer. She exploited her body, her desire and erotic power over him. It was her choice and I cannot speak on behalf of her, and explain why they made love outdoors.

But if you prefer a more serious answer… I may have one. Body and its exposure is a topic which haunts me. From childhood memories to a remarkable text for me, Nudities by Giorgio Agamben. Maybe I wanted to show the fragility and at the same time the power of Lucia, with the act of undressing in a publicly exposed place, to a soldier and to you, spectator. You would not have the same feeling if the sex scene was happening behind the walls, would you?

In Ukraine, you know, there is a common misleading feeling — that you are safer behind a wall during the attacks of Russian missiles. And your body is very fragile when you are outside. You feel naked (important to distinguish naked from nude). And you feel very mortal. And, if it is not your lucky day - you die. And photographers will shoot your naked body, or body parts, and expose it to the whole world in the news. I have been seeing so many images of naked bodies since 4 years of Russian full-scale invasion into Ukraine. It’s mostly the bodies of dead or wounded people. Mostly men… Before, if you had asked me what my first association with the image of a nude body was, I would answer — pleasure. Now it’s death. I think today death and erotism are walking too close together for me. Maybe it influenced the film, and the balcony scene too. And also I am quite an exhibitionist.

Q3: In the ending, Lucia calls out “Jesus help me” during the assault but receives no response, before she is shot and thrown into the river. The silence feels deeply symbolic. How do you understand this silence? Does it relate to your reflections on faith, justice, or even redemption in extreme circumstances like the war?

A3: What can I say… Rarely, but sometimes, I do talk to God or someone similar, as if to myself. And there are moments when there is no answer. Usually it’s the moment of the worst despair. I hear this silence and I often laugh at myself. 

I can’t say that Lucia has strong faith in Jesus. I think she just has beautiful fantasies and imagination. So strong that she can materialize them. Or at least come to my head and make me think about this story and make it a movie. You see. I deeply believe that Lucia exists somewhere in a parallel world.

And of course in extreme circumstances faith and feelings of injustice are amplified. For example, when I am in my apartment in Kyiv and there is a huge attack by Russian drones and missiles, I can become so scared that my body paralyzes for a moment. Sometimes I even pray to stay alive, without knowing any prayers by heart. Sometimes I am very angry at him. It’s as in this African American traditional spiritual song:

So I ran to the Lord

I said, "Lord, hide me

Please hide me, please help me."

He said, "Child, where were you

When you ought-a been praying?"

But in Just Drifting he doesn't answer anything…Maybe silence is his answer. Or sometimes, when I rewatch the film, I come to a feeling that perhaps he was just not there all this time? Does he exist at all?

Just Drifting, Olaa Zhyzhko, 2025

Q4: The film makes extensive use of handheld shots, zoom-ins and zoom-outs, and even inverted frames during the nurse’s dialogue with the dead, creating a disorienting visual rhythm. What kind of emotional or perceptual state did you hope the audience would experience through this instability?

A4: A state of arrhythmia.

Q5: You previously worked as an editor for Vogue Ukraine. Has that background in fashion media influenced how you perceive and construct visual style in film? The film’s use of color and music, especially the chant-like song near the end, feels highly distinctive. Do you think this aesthetic sensibility in both sight and sound has shaped the way you approach themes such as war and the body？

A5: What influenced me a lot when I worked in the fashion industry was the cinema and real characters from Ukraine whom I observed in everyday life. It was not clothes or fashion media which formed my visual style. It may seem so, as there is a special aesthetic approach in Just Drifting. But, some time ago it was cinema who influenced fashion, not vice-versa. Before cinéastes were more open to, I would say, extravagant or distinctive visual style, including image, scenography, costumes and even make-up. Now, I rarely see style in cinema. It is even, in my opinion, sort of a taboo of the generation. “No style.” I don’t like it.

There are rarely characters whom you would define by style also. So, as fashion took a lot from cinematic images, I am not sure that it’s the work in Vogue which influenced my perception of aesthetics. But my relations with corporality — maybe yes. I saw a lot of models' bodies, who consider their body as a working tool and not as something intimate or personal. They used to undress without any sense of shame, shyness. Seeing them denuding maybe influenced my perception of the body too.

And of course aesthetic sensibility shapes how I approach every topic. I think living in Ukraine shaped my visual perception in a distinctive way. Just Drifting is shot in Paris, at the time of potential future WWIII, with mostly French team and actors. But it is also a very Ukrainian movie in aesthetics. In costumes, in colors, in decorations, in the mood. I tried to mix Paris, where I live now, and Kyiv, which is haunting me all the time. And using visual codes I saw, in approaching an irreal (for now) war. And I must admit some war images I perceive aesthetically. I don’t want to, but there are horrific images which mesmerize me.

Just Drifting, Olaa Zhyzhko, 2025

Q1：影片以战争为背景，但关注的焦点却落在个体露西亚身上，展现出她的恐惧、渴望与幻觉。您在创作时，是否更想通过个体的情感经验来折射战争的残酷与荒谬？在您看来，露西亚身上的欲望与绝望是否同样是一种被战争吞噬的结果？

A1: 若没有战争，露西亚也会在其他境遇中悲惨死去。我认为她注定无法平静地在床上死去。但若没有战争，她便不会遇见耶稣，也不会踏上这段旅程。她是这部影片的心脏，是它的眼睛、身体与皮肤。然而，引领她前行的始终是战争。战争赋予她幻想的欲望与更强大的行动力。露西亚的姿态，正是她对战争体制的抗争。即便最终惨遭杀害，战争也未能吞噬她。露西亚在战争前放声大笑，她选择顽强抵抗，且未曾屈服。哪怕在水中，她依然优雅地漂流着前行。是的，我认为战争会将一切推向极致，所有代价与赌注都会被无限放大。

在与饰演露西亚的演员萨莎 ·亚楚克讨论这部影片时（需要特别说明的是，萨莎此前从未出演过任何电影或戏剧），我曾对她说：我与露西亚身上共存着一种极其私人的特质——当恐惧袭来时，我会变得异常兴奋，这种兴奋渗透所有层面，甚至包含性欲。正是这种情绪推动着我不断向前。而体内的这种恐惧与脆弱，会转化为非理性的勇气，这是一种能传递力量的脆弱。我认为它很美。而我觉得，《漂流》所呈现的就是这样一种状态。

Q2：片尾那场性爱戏被放置在一个室外、开放的空间中，这样的选择非常大胆。您是否希望通过这种“公共性”来探讨女性欲望与身体在战争语境下的暴露、脆弱，或是某种重新夺回主动权的可能？

A2：我无意探讨任何“女性议题”，至少并非刻意为之。我只是想象了露西亚·霍洛德纳的故事，包括她所生活的世界，以及她所经历的旅程。这个角色在我脑海中逐渐变得鲜活起来，而我只是跟随着她，完成了这部电影。但因为我本身并不是一个稳定的人，充满着矛盾与游移，所以我相信两种理解皆可成立。在那场戏中，露西亚主导了耶稣，那个男人、士兵、创造者与毁灭者的复合体。她利用自己的身体、欲望与情欲力量掌控了他。这是她的选择，我无权代她解释为何选择在户外做爱。

但若更加严肃地讲，身体及其暴露，一直是困扰着我的主题。从童年的记忆开始，到后来对我影响很深的一本书，乔治·阿甘本的《裸体》，皆是如此。也许，我是想通过露西亚在一个完全暴露的公共空间中脱去衣物的行为，以及其面对士兵与观众的双重凝视，从而展现她的脆弱与力量。倘若这场性爱场景发生在墙后，你所感受到的东西，就会完全不同，对不对？

在乌克兰，人们普遍有种错觉，那就是当俄罗斯导弹袭来时，躲在墙后会更安全。而当你身处户外时，你的身体便显得极其脆弱，你会感到自己是赤裸的。这里很重要的一点是，要区分 naked （裸露）与 nude（裸体）。你会强烈地意识到人必有一死，如果哪天你不走运，你就会死去。而摄影师会拍下你赤裸的身体或肢体残骸，并将这些画面通过新闻公之于众。在俄罗斯全面入侵乌克兰的这四年里，我目睹了太多裸露的躯体影像，多是伤亡者的遗体，且多为男性。如果你在以前问我，对“裸体”意象最直接的联想是什么，我会回答：欢愉。但现在，我想到的则是死亡。对我来说，死亡与性欲正在变得异常接近。或许这影响了影片创作，也影响了阳台上那场性爱戏的设计。我也必须承认，我骨子里就带着些自我暴露的倾向。

Q3：影片结尾，Lucia在遭受侵犯时呼唤“Jesus help me”，却未获回应，最终被射杀并投入河中。这一结尾具有强烈的象征意味。请问导演如何理解这份“沉默”？它是否与您对信仰、正义或救赎在极端处境中的思考有关？

A3：该怎么说呢，有时候，虽然并不常见，但我确实会像自言自语般地和上帝，或某个类似的存在说话。而总会有那么一些时刻得不到回应，那往往正是最绝望的瞬间。聆听这片沉默，我常常对自己苦笑。

我并不认为露西亚对耶稣怀有虔诚的信仰，她不过拥有绚丽的幻想与想象力罢了。这力量如此强大，足以让幻想具象化。至少，它们闯入了我的脑海，让我开始构思这个故事，并最终将它拍成电影。你看，我由衷地相信，露西亚在某个平行世界中真实地存在着。

当然，在极端处境中，信仰与对不公的感受都会被无限放大。比如，当我身处基辅的公寓里，俄罗斯的无人机与导弹发动大规模袭击时，我有时会恐惧到身体短暂地失去知觉。某些时刻，我甚至会开始祈祷，只求自己能活下来，尽管我连一句完整的祷词都背不出来。有时，我又会对他感到愤怒，就像这首非裔美国人传统灵歌所唱：

“于是我奔向主

我祈求，‘主啊，藏起我

请藏起我，请救救我’

他却问，‘孩子，当你本该祷告之时

究竟身在何方？’”

但在《漂流》里，他始终沉默不语，没有给出任何回应。也许，沉默本身就是他的答案。有时重看影片，我甚至怀疑他是否从未存在过。他真的存在吗？

Just Drifting, Olaa Zhyzhko, 2025

Q4: 影片中大量使用手持镜头和变焦镜头，以及护士与死者对话时上下颠倒的画面，营造出一种不稳定的、晕眩的观看体验。您希望观众在这种视觉不安中体会怎样的情绪或感知？

A4：一种失序的节律，一种心律失常的状态。

Q5: 您曾在乌克兰版《Vogue》担任编辑，这段时尚媒体的经历是否影响了您在影像风格上的感知？影片的色彩与音乐都具有鲜明的风格，尤其是临近结尾那首带有吟唱感的歌曲。您认为这种视觉与听觉上的美学感知，是否在某种程度上塑造了您对战争与身体主题的表达？

A5：当我在时尚行业工作的期间，真正对我影响深远的其实是电影艺术，以及我在日常生活中观察到的那些来自乌克兰的真实人物。塑造我视觉风格的并非服装或时尚媒体，尽管《漂流》里的确呈现出一种相当鲜明的美学取向，容易让观众产生这样的联想。但在我看来，在某个时期，是电影影响了时尚，而非反之。早期的电影人更敢于尝试夸张或独特的视觉风格，涵盖影像本身、场景设计、服装乃至妆容。如今，我却鲜少在电影中见到风格化的表达。在我看来，这几乎变成当代创作者的一种禁忌，一种共识式的“拒绝风格”。我并不喜欢这种风气。

同时，也很少再出现那种可以用风格来定义的角色了。因此，尽管时尚行业本身大量汲取电影影像的养分，但我并不确定自己在《Vogue》的工作经历是否真的影响了我对美学的感知。但我与“身体”的关系，或许确实在那段时间发生了变化。我见过许多模特，她们将身体视为一种工作的工具，而非私密或个人的存在，而她们袒露肌肤时也毫无羞耻或腼腆之感。观看这些身体被不断裸露的过程，或许也重塑了我对于“身体”的认知。

当然，对于美学的感知塑造着我在创作中处理每个主题的方式。我也认为，在乌克兰的生活经历以独特的方式塑造了我的视觉认知。《漂流》拍摄于巴黎，背景设定在第三次世界大战可能爆发的时期，而剧组和演员大多来自法国。但从美学角度来说，它又是一部非常乌克兰的电影，无论是服装、色彩、布景还是整体的情绪氛围。我试图将自己的现居地巴黎，与始终萦绕于我心头的基辅交织融合，借由我熟悉的视觉符号，来呈现这场（目前仍属非现实的）战争。我必须承认，某些战争影像在我眼中竟具有美学价值。尽管我并不愿如此，但那些骇人景象却令我着迷。

About the Artist 艺术家简介

Olaa Zhyzhko was born in 1993 in Kyiv, Ukraine. She studied cultural studies at Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, then worked as an editor at Vogue Ukraine. In 2021, she enrolled at La Fémis, in the film directing department.

奥拉·日日科1993 年出生于乌克兰基辅，曾就读于基辅莫希拉学院（Kyiv-Mohyla Academy）主修文化研究，随后在《时尚（乌克兰版）》（VOGUE）担任编辑。2021 年进入法国国立高等影像与声音职业学院（La Fémis）导演系学习。

▌more information: https://www.bisff.co/selection/just-drifting