BISSFF2025 | Correspondence 通信计划053：Dew Point 凝露点

BISFF Correspondence 通信计划

This program involves conducting brief email interviews with the directors of the international films featured in the festival, in lieu of the traditional Q&A session that follows the screenings. Through this program, we hope to provide a platform for filmmakers to discuss their work and share their insights with our audience in China.

为了跨越种种障碍，开辟更多交流空间，我们设置了“BISFF Correspondence 通信计划”，对部分国际单元的参展作者进行系列访谈，这些访谈将在作品放映后发布在联展各个媒体平台。

Dew Point｜凝露点

Nicola Baratto 尼古拉·巴拉托

2025｜0:15:30｜France, Italy, Morocco, Netherlands｜Italian, English｜World Premiere

Director: Nicola Baratto

Interviewer & Translator: Penny Yiou Peng

Coordinator & Editor: Suliko

导演：尼古拉·巴拉托

采访、翻译：彭忆欧

统筹、编辑：苏丽珂

Q1: Even before delving into the narrative, your film’s title, “Dew Point,” immediately captured my imagination. Perhaps precisely because I lacked a clear understanding of its specific meteorological meaning, I found the concept of “dew point” deeply poetic and intriguing, possessing a unique kind of delicacy. It speaks to nature’s alchemical processes—the elemental entanglement of water and air, the two shape-shifters that manifest as fog or dew depending on their environment. I sensed similar transformations unfolding throughout your film: shifts between elements, states of consciousness, memory and remembrance, water and dreams. Yet, I still very much curious, what makes you decided to name your work “Dew Point”, or rather, to name the laboratory in the film “Dew Point”? And what is the original inspiration of creation of “Dew Point”?

A1:The title emerged from different research processes. As you suggested, the term refers to a specific process in meteorology: the temperature at which a given body of air must cool down for its humidity to become water droplets. I discovered it through a field research in Morocco, where parts of the film were shot. I was visiting an experimental project of fog collection in the Anti-Atlas mountains, hosted by Foundation Dar Si Hmad, and so I found out of this term. The original inspiration grew through an archive research I did at the Bibliotheca Philosophica Hermetica in Amsterdam. There I found an alchemical manuscript called ‘Mutus Liber’ which I had the chance to browse and eventually film, and that is the historical book that opens and closes ‘Dew point’. The idea of harvesting dew became then a sort of spiritual and medical treatment to heal from terrifying nightmares that haunt one’s soul, fabulating on notions belonging to the scientific, the psychological and the spiritual.

Q2: I am intrigued by your cinematic language. Every mise-en-scène in your film feels exquisitely crafted —by which I mean each element within the frame appears to carry meaningful intention. Like encountering a subtle code, I sometimes grasp the significance behind certain curated images, while at other times their meaning eludes me. Yet this never diminishes my engagement, as the narrative continues to guide me forward.There's even a sense in which both Dew Point and your earlier short Red Sulfur (Zolfo Rosso) feel like constellations formed from tarot cards—where every object, element, color, landscape, sound, and figure, along with their specific position in the scene, seems to hold its own narrative. In this way, your work strikes me as profoundly material and elemental (not to mention your use of 16mm film), while simultaneously evoking spirituality through that very materiality. Does this interpretation resonate with you? If so, I'm curious whether elements, materiality, and the alchemy of cinema are central to your artistic experimentation. What is your methodology?

A2: Definitively. I have been really passionate about studying the ineffable world of dreams, the enigmas of the alchemical process, questions related to history, archaeology, and the natural world. I am also very fascinated by the narrative ‘tools’ of collective memory such as myths, tales, and oral traditions. All these themes blend in a way of thinking, working, and researching I call ‘Archaeodreaming’, it’s an artistic language I have developed with Greek artist Yiannis Mouravas during the last ten years. To pick from your question, I like to think about artworks, whether film, text, or sculpture, where narrative and materiality collide in experimental ways.

Q3: Following on this, and considering our current posthuman condition where the mainstream media is increasingly dominated by reels and shorts — driven by seemingly invisible data and algorithms — I somehow feel that the actual “materiality of cinema” is vanishing — I’m thinking of the indexicality of film, the decline of cinema houses, and the dwindling number of labs that develop analog film… Given this context, I imagine artists who insist working with analog film must face significant challenges. What are your thoughts on this? Would u accept that the audience watch your film on a smart phone?

A3: I am very passionate of analogue film, I am now working on a 16mm film which I am developing myself. I set up a darkroom in the studio’s kitchen and I am taking care of the full process. I don’t think the practice is vanishing, there is still a community of analogue filmmakers, it’s pretty much alive! Obviously we face huge challenges because it got really expensive. But for me it still makes sense to insist. Working on film does something to your attention while you film. I feel a heightened sense of curiosity and excitement. I think it does something to your consciousness as well. And the materiality of 16mm looks so good.

But I am not a purist at all, so ok for watching the film on a smartphone, although ok, obviously the cinematic experience would be more precious and magical. The phone screen is good for information, but less for the enchantment we need to live through our times.

Dew Point, Nicola Baratto, 2025

Q4: I found it genuinely challenging to categorize your work. I know that after making Dew Point, you went on to develop the full exhibition Tears of Fog at LE 18 in Marrakech—comprising installation, performance, and reading. As I mentioned earlier, I’m drawn to describing your process as “crafting” films, particularly since you create all the objects in your films, right? And everyone who participates in your film is an artist, bringing their own practices into the work. This leads me to see your filmmaking as something profoundly unique—where each piece functions as a Gesamtkunstwerk, a total work of art. That’s also what makes it so hard to define: your film is not simply a “film.” It is at once an artwork, an exhibition, an experience, and a form of collective memory. Could you speak a bit about the making of Dew Point and how it evolved into Tears of Fog? How do you navigate between the cinema world and the art world? Is it a difficult balance, or do you find the two realms enrich each other?

A4: Indeed all objects were crafted specifically for the films, with the precious collaboration of many friends and artists. I like to think of each project as a world-building process. So I try to craft worlds with people, physical and metaphysical objects, and spaces. In the process I try to follow the guidance of my own dreams, which I have been writing down for years now.

The research behind “Dew Point” grew to an exhibition at LE18 Marrakech, where I had the chance to show some of the research process with a different format while inviting a few other artists to contribute to the theme. Also, the collaboration with Dar Si Hmad, the Moroccan Foundation is continuing, as I aim to expand the documentation of their fog harvesting project. In this sense, I hope the research will grow into new formats and artworks.

Regarding the navigation between cinema and art worlds...I am actually not used to navigate the cinema world. I have been active as an artist and mainly showcased within the art world in Europe and the Mediterranean. But I am very excited to present “Dew Point”, which is my first film, at the Beijing International Short Film Festival. Let’s see what the audience says!

Q5: While watching your film, I couldn’t help but recall Gaston Bachelard’s book Water and Dreams, in which he extensively explores imagination, water, dream and images, particularly, the “image-making power”. Your film opens with water and dream, the “nightmare”, described by the protagonist, “there is no difference between day and night. No thinking. Like being dead while alive.” This made me reflect on how we, much like the character, seem to be experiencing a form of collective insomnia—living in a world where day and night blur under the spectacular glow of modern technology, accompanied by a pervasive forgetfulness, a loss of memory and history. At first, I sensed a critique of technology, but this impression was later subverted by the cosmology of Dew Point. The film presents "Dew Point" as a laboratory of healing, grounded in tangible technology—where the doctor employs one of the oldest forms of technology: hypnosis through water and dreams. What I'm trying to express is that in your narrative, through water and dreams, you transmute science into spiritual practice and technology into magic. I wonder whether these two elements also serve as portals or guides in your own search for the "image-making power." Or, to pose the question more broadly: what are the most essential elements in your journey of image-making?

A5: The whole Bachelard’s cycles of work on the reverie and the materiality of dreams has been profoundly important to me. Well spotted! In “Dew Point” I engaged primarily with the elements of water and air, though in other works I’ve also explored the material essence of fire, sulphur, earth, salt, and mercury. I guess in less direct ways, but a material imagination has always been integral to my process of making. I wonder how these forms of matter also constitute objects. I mean both material existing objects, and immaterial metaphysical objects that perhaps only exist as memory or as imagination.

In a world where everything is suggested to us by the ever-accelerating mediasphere, I find it essential to create portals to Otherworlds. I don’t really agree with a world that draws hard distinctions between what is considered ‘real’ and what is disregarded as ‘just a fantasy’. I think humans are equipped with the faculty of imagination precisely to blur these hard definitions, and in my view engaging with the imagination of the elements is a great way to open such portal.

Q6: Yes. I completely agree. We truly need portals to the “Otherworlds”. I also firmly believe that the boundary between so-called “reality” and “fantasy” is permeable. Imagination may be the ultimate superpower that enables human beings to dream — to disturb the standardised “reality” societies impose upon us. As Federico Campagna writes in his recent book, aptly titled Otherworlds “The existence of an object — any object, be it a person, a land or the whole world— includes all the aspects that we can perceive through our imagination, stretching even beyond the field of the imaginable. The persistence of an object in our mind, after it has materially disappeared, and the life that it continues to lead within our imagination, engaged din an endless series of metamorphoses, reveal glimpses of its existence in dimensions that lie outside realm governed by space and time.” Reading this, I was again reminded of your image-making practice and your approach to cinema—precisely because of the distinctive materiality embodied in your cinematic alchemy. From the crafting of physical objects to the composition of each mise-en-scène, the creation of images on 16mm film, and the execution of special effects, every layer feels tangible and intentional. I know you seldom rely on advanced software to generate CGI.

Following on this, as the world plunges deeper into algorithms and data—not to mention the rise of AI-generated films—Paolo Cherchi Usai already proclaimed “the death of cinema” back in 2001, warning of the loss of film’s materiality in the face of preservation and digitization. My question for you is: What do you see as the greatest challenge in preserving this particular materiality, this “object-ness” or “thing-ness,” in your filmmaking today? And how do you navigate these challenges?

A6: I guess Usai’s prevision has proven wrong, despite mainstream productions and media embracing the digital revolution and more recently AI. I feel there are many ways to make artworks and films, and everyone is free to feel to form their own opinions and expressions. But I think the main challenge is how to remain human, empathic, wholehearted and mindful, regardless of the form.

Dew Point, Nicola Baratto, 2025

Q1：最先吸引我的是《凝露点》这个标题。或许正是因为自己对其气象学旨意缺乏认知，“凝露点”在我看来是一个极具诗意的意象，且蕴含着不可言喻的精妙之感。它指向自然界中的“炼金术”：水与空气这两种变幻无形的元素交织，依循环境化型为“雾”或“露”。我在你的电影中也感受到类似的形变与转化，某种基于元素之间、意识之间、回忆之间、水与梦之间的流转。然而我仍然十分好奇，是什么促使你将作品命名为“凝露点”，更确切地说，将片中的梦之实验室称作“凝露点”？《凝露点》这部作品最初的创作灵感又是什么？

A1：这个片名的诞生经历了多重研究历程。正如你所说，这个术语指的是气象学中的一个特定过程：即一定量的空气必须冷却到某个温度，使其中的水分凝结成水滴。我是在摩洛哥进行田野研究的时候发现这个概念的，电影的部分场景也是在那里拍摄的。当时我正在参观安蒂阿特拉斯山脉一个由 Dar Si Hmad 基金会主持的、采集雾霭的实验项目，从而得知了这个术语。最初的灵感则萌芽于我在阿姆斯特丹赫尔墨斯哲学图书馆（Biblioteca Philosophica Hermetica ）所做的档案研究。在那里，我发现了一份名为《静谧书》（Mutus Liber）的炼金术手稿，并有幸仔细研读乃至最终将其拍摄收录——《凝露点》首尾出现的炼金术图鉴便源自这本古籍。在糅合了科学认知、心理体验与灵性领悟之后，采集露水的构想由此逐渐升华为一种心灵与医学疗法，旨在治愈萦绕灵魂的恐怖梦魇。

Q2：我觉得你的电影语言十分有趣。影片中的每一个场面都感觉是精心雕琢而成。所谓“雕琢”，我指的是画面中的每个元素都承载着意义。像是邂逅某种密码，时而我能解读出影像中某些被精心安排的神秘意象，时而又难以捕捉其真谛。但这从未削弱我的沉浸感，因为叙事还在引导走向秘境深处。我甚至感觉，《凝露点》与你之前的短片《红硫》 (Zolfo Rosso) ，都像是用塔罗牌组成的星图——每个物体、元素、色彩、景观、声音、人物以及它们在场景中的特定位置，都有其自身的叙事。在这个意义上，你的影像作品对我来讲充满了物质性与元素感（且不说16毫米胶片的运用），同时又透过这种物质性唤醒了灵性维度。你觉得这种感受与你有共鸣吗？如果有，我很好奇，元素、物质性以及（电影）炼金术，是否是你艺术实践的基础？你的方法论是什么？

A2：确实如此。我一直热衷于探究那些难以言喻的梦境世界、炼金过程中的未解之谜，以及与历史、考古和自然世界相关的命题。同时，我也对集体记忆的叙事“工具”， 如神话，传说，和口述传统非常着迷。所有这些主题都融合在我称之为“考古梦境”的方法论中。这是我在过去十年里与希腊艺术家 Yiannis Mouravas 共同发展出的一种艺术语言。正如你的问题所触及的，我始终致力于在电影、文本或雕塑等艺术形式中，以实验性的方式实现叙事与物质性的碰撞。

Q3：承接这一点，考虑到我们当下所处的后人类境况，主流媒体日益被短视频和算法这些看似无形的数据所主导，我感到电影真正的“物质性”正在消逝。我想到胶片的索引性、电影院的没落，以及仍在冲洗模拟胶片的实验室越来越少……在这样的背景下，我想那些坚持使用胶片创作的艺术家们必然面临巨大挑战。你对此有何看法？你能接受观众在智能手机上观看你的电影吗？

A3：我始终对胶片充满热情。我现在正在制作一部16毫米电影，并且是自己冲洗。我在工作室的厨房里搭建了一个暗房，全程亲力亲为。我不认为这种实践正在消失，至今仍存在着一群充满活力的胶片电影人，这个群体依然生机勃勃。显然我们面临着巨大的挑战，因为胶片电影的成本变得非常昂贵。但对我来说，坚持仍然有意义。用胶片拍摄会影响你在拍摄时的注意力。我感到一种更强烈的好奇和兴奋。我相信它也会深层影响我们的意识感知。而且16毫米胶片所呈现的质感实在是太美妙了。

但我并不是一个纯粹主义者。我可以接受观众通过智能手机看我的作品，尽管影院带来的体验显然更加珍贵且充满魔力。我认为手机屏幕适合获取信息，却难以承载我们在这个时代迫切需要的、那种令人心驰神往的“enchantment （魅力）”。

Dew Point, Nicola Baratto, 2025

Q4：我发现很难对你的作品简单归类。在制作完《凝露点》后，你还在马拉喀什的LE18空间创作了一个完整的展览《雾之泪》，融合装置、表演与朗读。如前所述，我认为你的创作过程是在“雕刻’电影——尤其是片中所有实体物件都由你亲手制作的，对吗？而且每位参与者都是带着自身艺术实践的创作者。这让我意识到你创作的独特性—你的每一件作品本身实际上都是一个“总体艺术” （Gesamtkunstwerk），这就带来了定义上的困难，因为你的作品不止于“影像”，它同时也是艺术装置、展览、体验、集体记忆。能否请你谈谈《凝露点》的创作过程，以及它如何延展为《雾之泪》？你是如何游走于电影界与艺术界之间？这种平衡是否困难，抑或你觉得这两个领域实则相互滋养？

A4：的确，所有的物件都是为电影专门创作的，这离不开与许多朋友和艺术家的珍贵协作。我更愿意将每个项目视为一次“世界构建”（world-building) 的过程——我尝试与人、与具象及抽象之物、与空间共同雕琢出一个个世界。在这个过程中，我尝试遵循我自己梦境的指引，这些梦我已经记录了很多年。

《凝露点》背后的研究最终延展为LE18马拉喀什的展览，在那里我有机会以不同的形式呈现了部分研究历程，同时邀请其他几位艺术家围绕这个主题进行创作。此外，与摩洛哥Dar Si Hmad基金会的合作仍在继续，我希望能进一步拓展对他们收雾项目的调研与记录。正因如此，我期待这项研究能持续生长，演化出新的形式与作品。

关于游走于电影与艺术世界之间……其实我并未习惯涉足电影圈。长期以来我以艺术家身份活跃，作品多在欧洲及地中海地区的艺术界展出。但此次能带着我的首部电影《凝露点》来到北京国际短片联展，感到非常兴奋。非常期待观众们的反馈！

Q5：观影之时我总会不由自主地想到加斯东·巴什拉（Gaston Bachelard）的《水与梦》（Water and Dreams）。他在书中深入探讨了想象、水、梦与图像，尤其是“图像创造力”。你的电影以水和梦开场，借主人公之口描绘了“噩梦”——“昼夜不分，思绪停滞，如同行尸走肉”。这让我不禁反思，在资本技术加速主义漩涡中的人类群体何尝不像剧中人一样，正经历着某种集体性失眠？生活在这个被现代科技奇观模糊了昼夜界限的世界里，伴随而来的是普遍存在的失忆。起初，我从中读到了对技术的批判，但《凝露点》的宇宙观随后颠覆了我的认知。影片将“凝露点”呈现为一个根植于实体技术的疗愈实验室——医生运用的正是最古老的技术之一：借由水与梦实施的催眠之法。我感到在你的叙事中，通过水与梦的媒介，将科学转化为灵性实践，让技术蜕变为魔法。不知这两个元素是否也是你追寻“图像创造力”过程中的入口或向导？或者容我更开阔地发问：在你创造图像的旅途中，哪些是最重要的元素？

A5：巴什拉关于遐想与梦的物质性的整个系列著作，对我而言都意义非凡。你的觉察很准确！在《凝露点》中，我主要运用了水和空气的元素，不过在其他作品中，我也探索过火、硫、土、盐和汞的物质本质。或许方式不那么直接，但物质的想象始终是我创作过程中不可或缺的部分。我常常思考这些物质形态如何构成我们可感知触碰的物体——既包括物质存在的实体，也包含那些或许仅存于记忆或想象中的、非物质的形而上学客体。

在这个被不断加速的媒体圈层灌输一切的世界里，我认为创造通往“他界”的入口至关重要。我并不认同那种在所谓的“现实”与被贬为“仅是幻想”的事物之间划出森严界限的世界观。我相信，人类被赋予想象力这种天赋，正是为了消融这些僵硬的界定。而在我看来，与元素的想象力共舞，正是打开此类入口的绝佳途径。

Q6：真的，我超赞同。太需要通往“他界”的入口了。我也认为所谓“现实”与“幻想”之间的界限本是可渗透的。想象力或许是人类得以做梦的超能力——它赋予我们打破社会强加于我们的标准化“现实”的能力。正如费德里科·坎帕尼亚（Federico Campagna）在他那本恰名为《他界》（Otherworlds）的新作中所写：“任何物体的存在——无论是一个人、一片土地还是整个世界——都包含了我们通过想象力所能感知的一切面向，甚至超越了可想象的领域。当客体在物质层面消失后，它在我们意识中的存续，以及它在想象世界中经历的无穷蜕变，都向我们揭示了其在时空维度之外存在的踪迹。” 这段文字让我再次联想到你的影像美学，正是因为你作品中蕴藏的炼金术式的物质性。从实体物件的雕琢，到每一处场面的调度，从16毫米胶片上的影像生成，到非数码特殊效果的实现 （我知道你很少，几乎不依赖高级软件制作CGI效果），每一层创作都充满了可触知的质感与意向。

延续这一思考，在我们所处的世界日益深陷算法与数据——更不用说AI生成电影的兴起——的当下，电影理论家保罗·切奇·乌萨伊（Paolo Cherchi Usai）早在2001年就已宣告“电影的死亡”，警示我们在保存与数字化进程中电影物质性的消亡。我的问题是：在当下的创作中，你为保存这种特定的物质性、这种“客体性”或“物性”，面临的最大挑战是什么？你又是如何应对这些挑战的？

A6：我猜想乌萨伊的预见其实并未成真——尽管主流影视作品与媒体早已拥抱数字革命，并在近年接纳人工智能。我认为艺术创作与电影制作本应拥有多元形态，每个人都有权坚持自己的感悟，以及表达此般感悟的形式。但在我看来，核心挑战始终在于：无论形式如何变迁，我们该如何守护人之为人的天性——充满共情，心怀赤诚，且灵台清明。

About the Artist 艺术家简介

Nicola Baratto is a multidisciplinary artist based in Amsterdam. Working with film, sculpture and installation, Baratto builds narrative worlds mixing dream journaling with archive and field research. His "Archaeodreaming" method, developed in collaboration with Yiannis Mouravas, employs archaeology, myths, and imagination to question the grounds on which history is written, and how material memory influences (un)conscious collective and individual lives.

尼古拉·巴拉托是一位常驻阿姆斯特丹的多学科艺术家。他致力于电影、雕塑与装置创作，构建出融合梦境日记、档案与田野调查的叙事世界。他与扬尼斯·穆拉瓦合作开发的“考古梦境”方法论，运用考古学、神话与想象，审视历史书写的根基，并探寻物质记忆如何影响（无）意识的集体与个体生活。

About the Author 作者简介

Penny Yiou Peng is a scholar and interdisciplinary writer, artist based in Berlin. She earns her Double BA in Economics and Film Studies from Smith College (USA), an MA in Philosophy and Film Studies from University College London (UK), and a PhD from the Institute of Theatre Studies at Freie Universität Berlin (Germany). She works in philosophy, performance, embodied writing, and ecological-sensing dramaturgy and translation. Her research explores Daoist cosmology, critical posthumanism, genetics, ritual, and the Eastern and Western Pre-modern mythological practices. Intrigued by the seemingly invisible, inaudible, and untouchable spaces, Yiou is curious whether language can arrive at the edges of perception—translating the ineffable into sensory experience. She likes to collect superpowers, in the company of little fluffy creatures.

彭忆欧（Penny Yiou Peng），旅居柏林的学者、跨学科写作者与艺术家。她先后获得美国史密斯学院经济学与电影研究双学士、英国伦敦大学学院哲学与电影研究硕士，德国柏林自由大学哲学与戏剧学研究博士学位。她的创作横跨哲学思辨、表演艺术、身体写作及生态感知为导向的戏剧构作与文本翻译。研究版图涉及道家宇宙观、批判性后人类主义、基因学、仪式，以及东西方前现代神话与魔法实践。她着迷于那些看似无形、无声、无法触及的空间，好奇语言是否能够抵达感知的边界，将不可言喻之物转译为感官经验。她喜欢与毛茸茸的小生灵为伴，收集世间种种超能力。

▌more information: https://www.bisff.co/selection/dew-point